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RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

pcjagfan1146 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 14:12:20 GMT

Del Rio said he was happy with Williams and his play at CB. He implied that Williams would not move to S, but did not confirm that he would not be tried at the S position. Based on what he said, like many others, I thought it unlikely that Williams goes to S. However, the only way the Jags draft a CB is if Williams moves to S.

It is possible the Jags will have to choose among Phillips, Balmer, Groves, and whatever OT, LB, WR, CB, RB, etc. If Merling is gone, then I hope we take Phillips-providing we stay at 26.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Jags02 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:46:47 GMT

[quote][b]Alfie (4/12/2008)[/b][hr]Apparently Jack Del Rio has said Williams will not move to safety.

Like I've been saying all off season....

I could see us taking a DB, in Kenny Philips. I'd almost rather have Philips than Jackson/Campbell/Groves etc. in Round 1.[/quote]

Actually, Del Rio has been his normal self wherein he's careful not to say anything. Regarding BW's suspected move to S, all Del Rio said is "not necessarily." By no means does that rule out the possibility. With that said, I still view BW as our NB with Sensabaugh reclaiming his starting SS position.

Also, in regards to what CB the Jaguars might target, be sure to consider the new rule that force outs will no longer be called. You want a physical corner who can literally carry receivers out of bounds.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Jags02 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:38:29 GMT

[quote][b]Chooch (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Teal 'n Black (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]needs based drafting...[/quote]

Is how you screw up your draft and put your team in a bad position for years to come...see Byron, Reggie and MJ, granted Reggie has played better as of late.[/quote]

The thing that I keep thinking about is that if the team had gone with what was rumored to be their BAP (and I strongly emphasize rumor since there is no way to know), Terrell Suggs, how the next few years would have played out provided the team generated similar records. Take a look at this and understand that this is the epitome of hindsight being perfect:

2003 - Terrell Suggs, DE.

2004 - Ben Roethlisberger, QB.

2005 - Heath Miller, TE.

Those three players alone would provide for one (dirty word) of a team core to build around for the next 7-8 seasons.

Man I hate thinking about what if's.[/quote]

I thought about this same scenerio a few times over the past couple years. It's plain as day in hindsight, and that's just it. I know you can't ask anyone to have "hindsight," but for some reason the best GMs just seem to have it. Big Ben gets hated on our board quite a bit, but part of it I think is jealousy that we didn't get him. He's a very underrated, mobile QB with an accurate deep arm. And Heath Miller is simply a beast. I do think Marcedes has a great future in store for him, and I'm confident he'll impress this year, but Miller was impressing everyone out of the gate.

Then again, over the past four decades how many teams have said they wish they could draft as well as the Steelers?

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Jags02 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 13:29:20 GMT

[quote][b]ASUjag (4/9/2008)[/b][hr]If we take a corner I will not be happy. We HAVE to take a big man with the first pick, I don't care if its O-line or D-line, but there should be at least one or two quality big men on the board when we pick. If there was a bonafide SS available that would be one thing, but there is not even one in this draft with a first round grade. Go BIG early![/quote]

What if its Cromartie Jr who drops and the Jaguars manage to get him at #26.

I understand the need to "go BIG early!" but in the late first round that's not always the best option. Typically that phrase refers to picks in the top half of round one.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Alfie — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:44:24 GMT

Apparently Jack Del Rio has said Williams will not move to safety.

Like I've been saying all off season....

I could see us taking a DB, in Kenny Philips. I'd almost rather have Philips than Jackson/Campbell/Groves etc. in Round 1.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

pcjagfan1146 — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 07:07:36 GMT

If a CB is our first pick, then it's Brandon Flowers to play nickel.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

ytraM — Sat, 12 Apr 2008 06:08:56 GMT

[quote][b]jj82284 (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]maize n blue (4/10/2008)[/b][hr]Here's something to think about...

2/3 of the league (maybe more) plays base zone defense, most in a variety of the "Cover 2". These zone base defenses should de-emphasize the position of CB, in theory. However, more and more CB's get taken early every year. The reason is the BAP theory (or sometimes BAA - Best Available Athlete). CB's are often the best athlete's on the field and also guys that really stick out on tape. It is surely an overdrafted position, but how many bad teams have 3-4 very good CB's?[/quote]

the reason that 2/3 of the teams have to run a base zone defense is because 2/3 of the teams don't have the guys on te outside to go one on one with the leagues best recievers. the chargers play mostly man and the giants play mostly man those two teams did the best jobs aginst the pats. tom brady will pick anyone apart when his backfoot hits the depth of the pocket and in a zone defense there will be guys open on the THIRD step, not even the fith or seventh.

Greg williams signifies a doctrinal shift to a base man strategy for this team and you are right, not very many teams (especially that run base man) have 3-4 really good corners and struggle against the pass. [/quote]

I agree and also would add, the Jaguars played nickel defense 60% of the time last year. We just can't line up against Peyton Manning or Tom Brady in a cover 2 defense without getting picked apart. Hence the need for more than 2 quality corners.

PLUS, move Brian Williams to safety, and line up in a nickel defense with the other 3 corners on the field, and now we have FOUR guys on the field that can cover. It's an intriguing idea.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

BJORN TOURAQUE — Fri, 11 Apr 2008 01:11:33 GMT

[quote][b]rfc17 (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]BJORN TOURAQUE (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]rfc17 (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Teal 'n Black (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]needs based drafting...[/quote]

Is how you screw up your draft and put your team in a bad position for years to come...see Byron, Reggie and MJ, granted Reggie has played better as of late.[/quote]

Byron wasnt a need. and i dont even know if MJ was. i dont even think he was the best pure "WR" on the board at the time. i think he was drafted for his potential versatility and athleticism.[/quote]

I think Byron was a classic example of BAP drafting, was he not? We already had Garrard and Brunell.

Weren't we slated to take Suggs in that draft until the Vikings fumble?[/quote]

thats what i thought about Byron being BAP. clearly Brunell was on the downside of his career. but he had played fairly well the year prior. Garrard had just finished his first year and had showed some promise. You could argue that maybe drafting a QB would be something to consider. But It was definitely not a huge need.

This was Shack and Del Rio's first draft tho. and they wanted their guy. and Garrard was obviously a Coughlin holdover. so Lefty may not have been their BAP but im sure if not he was 2nd or 3rd on the list.

in hindsight Suggs looks like the better pick, but im under the impression a lot of Suggs success has been as an OLB in the 3-4. although i know the ravens have gone back and forth from a defensive standpoint between 3-4 and 4-3.[/quote]

Leftwich was going to the Vikings until they screwed their trade around and missed their deadline.

Who was on the Jaguars plate until they moved up?

I thought it was Suggs, but I don't remember for certain.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

jagabc6893 — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 19:06:01 GMT

[quote][b]rfc17 (4/9/2008)[/b][hr]anyone listen to 1010 this afternoon around 4:15? Vic was on w/ frangie and dempsey talking about the draft. He thinks the OTs and DEs we would want will be off the board quickly. and that since this is a deep CB class, there is a good chance a CB will be our BAP and thus first round draft pick.

Gotta think DRC and McKelvin will be gone.

ive seen varying opinions on Mike Jenkins. some top 10. others top 25. but in very few scenarios do I see him falling to us. so assume he is gone.

so frankly that leaves Antoine Cason and Aqib Talib as the next group. maybe a Brandon Flowers/Reggie Smith/Justin Kingshould be included in that group depending on personal opinions. but most sites seem to agree Cason and Talib are next.

Early in the process Talib seemed to be out of our reach. Then McKelvin and DRC went flying past him. and now with all the weed talk, his stock is dropping even more. would we draft him now? especially considering we seem to have so many players getting in trouble with the law. cant imagine Weaver would want a guy coming in that has a red flag for character concerns(whether they are legitimate or not).

So Antoine Cason imo would go above Talib in the Jags eyes. I wonder if Cason will make it to our pick. productive player looking at INTs. ran a solid 40 at the combine which allievated some fears of his speed. and sounds like the Cowboys are interested in a CB in the first round. he may be their best option if they go for that position w/ the 2nd of their two first rounders.

frankly id be surprised if we drafted a CBin the first round that wasnt one of those five players.[/quote]

I think the Cowboys will still take Talib with their first pick of round 1. We better not take Cason. He is pretty good, but he won't be BAP.

When it is out turn at #26, the BAP may actually be QB Brian Brohm and RB Felix Jones. Two positions that would be very hard for us to draft in round 1. Brohm is out for sure now with the huge contract Garrard just signed. Felix Jones could return kicks and be groomed for the future to possibly take over for Fred and share time with MJD. Not much of a chance we take him though.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

rfc17 — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 17:20:20 GMT

[quote][b]BJORN TOURAQUE (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]rfc17 (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Teal 'n Black (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]needs based drafting...[/quote]

Is how you screw up your draft and put your team in a bad position for years to come...see Byron, Reggie and MJ, granted Reggie has played better as of late.[/quote]

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

jj82284 — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 15:23:13 GMT

[quote][b]maize n blue (4/10/2008)[/b][hr]Here's something to think about...

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

BJORN TOURAQUE — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:15:05 GMT

[quote][b]rfc17 (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]Teal 'n Black (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]needs based drafting...[/quote]

Is how you screw up your draft and put your team in a bad position for years to come...see Byron, Reggie and MJ, granted Reggie has played better as of late.[/quote]

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Chop block — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 11:19:50 GMT

Gotta think DRC and McKelvin will be gone.

ive seen varying opinions on Mike Jenkins. some top 10. others top 25. but in very few scenarios do I see him falling to us. so assume he is gone.

so frankly that leaves Antoine Cason and Aqib Talib as the next group. maybe a Brandon Flowers/Reggie Smith/Justin King should be included in that group depending on personal opinions. but most sites seem to agree Cason and Talib are next.[/quote]

Aquib Talib tested positive for weed not once, not twice, but THREE times at Kansas. Considering that the Jaguars have been hovering near the top of the NFL "turd" list for some time, Aquib Talib should not even be considered in a first round mock draft. Players like Mario Manningham and Aquib Talib are too big of a risk.

Branden Flowers has a slow forty time for a CB, but has great game speed and recovers extremely well. Flowers is a student of the game and is a powerful tackler. He is fairly labeled as a cover-2 CB, but the Jags do play alot of cover-2.

To tell the truth, Quentin Groves is looking like the BAP. I have him as the 22nd best player in the draft on my Board and as much as I like Derick Harvey (should be gone by #13) the difference between the two is not that much. The only thing that hurts Groves is the foot (dislocated toes) injury and the rumor that he is "soft".

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

rfc17 — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 10:11:11 GMT

[quote][b]maize n blue (4/10/2008)[/b][hr]Here's something to think about...

maybe most teams play a Cover 2 that de-emphasizes the CB because they dont have good enough CBs to play man-to-man. hence the reason why so many teams overdraft CBs. just like they do QBs.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

maize n blue — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:55:36 GMT

Here's something to think about...

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Chooch — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 08:51:39 GMT

[quote][b]Teal 'n Black (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]needs based drafting...[/quote]

Is how you screw up your draft and put your team in a bad position for years to come...see Byron, Reggie and MJ, granted Reggie has played better as of late.[/quote]

2003 - Terrell Suggs, DE.

2004 - Ben Roethlisberger, QB.

2005 - Heath Miller, TE.

Those three players alone would provide for one (dirty word) of a team core to build around for the next 7-8 seasons.

Man I hate thinking about what if's.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

rfc17 — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:49:09 GMT

[quote][b]Teal 'n Black (4/10/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]needs based drafting...[/quote]

Is how you screw up your draft and put your team in a bad position for years to come...see Byron, Reggie and MJ, granted Reggie has played better as of late.[/quote]

Byron wasnt a need. and i dont even know if MJ was. i dont even think he was the best pure "WR" on the board at the time. i think he was drafted for his potential versatility and athleticism.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Teal 'n Black — Thu, 10 Apr 2008 00:21:06 GMT

[quote][b]needs based drafting...[/quote]

Is how you screw up your draft and put your team in a bad position for years to come...see Byron, Reggie and MJ, granted Reggie has played better as of late.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

jj82284 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 23:48:04 GMT

needs based drafting...

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

BigJohn98 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:31:41 GMT

[quote][b]SG98jags99 (4/9/2008)[/b][hr][quote][b]BigJohn98 (4/9/2008)[/b][hr]Defensive end is a greater need than corner.[/quote]

What don't you understand about "Best Available Player" ? This discussion is about BAP NOT need.

[/quote]

Well SORRY.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

pcjagfan1146 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:30:59 GMT

BAP could be a LB or a WR. It could also be Groves.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

Jags2DaDeath — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:21:33 GMT

Kenny Phillips

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

SG98jags99 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 19:06:01 GMT

[quote][b]BigJohn98 (4/9/2008)[/b][hr]Defensive end is a greater need than corner.[/quote]

What don't you understand about "Best Available Player" ? This discussion is about BAP NOT need.

As far as BAP, I think it will be a CB as well. Probably Antoine Cason. Hopefully Balmer will fall to us.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

BigJohn98 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:03:21 GMT

Defensive end is a greater need than corner.

RE: Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

ASUjag — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:00:58 GMT

If we take a corner I will not be happy. We HAVE to take a big man with the first pick, I don't care if its O-line or D-line, but there should be at least one or two quality big men on the board when we pick. If there was a bonafide SS available that would be one thing, but there is not even one in this draft with a first round grade. Go BIG early!

Vic thinks BAP will be a corner

rfc17 — Wed, 09 Apr 2008 17:57:43 GMT

anyone listen to 1010 this afternoon around 4:15? Vic was on w/ frangie and dempsey talking about the draft. He thinks the OTs and DEs we would want will be off the board quickly. and that since this is a deep CB class, there is a good chance a CB will be our BAP and thus first round draft pick.

Gotta think DRC and McKelvin will be gone.

ive seen varying opinions on Mike Jenkins. some top 10. others top 25. but in very few scenarios do I see him falling to us. so assume he is gone.

Early in the process Talib seemed to be out of our reach. Then McKelvin and DRC went flying past him. and now with all the weed talk, his stock is dropping even more. would we draft him now? especially considering we seem to have so many players getting in trouble with the law. cant imagine Weaver would want a guy coming in that has a red flag for character concerns(whether they are legitimate or not).

So Antoine Cason imo would go above Talib in the Jags eyes. I wonder if Cason will make it to our pick. productive player looking at INTs. ran a solid 40 at the combine which allievated some fears of his speed. and sounds like the Cowboys are interested in a CB in the first round. he may be their best option if they go for that position w/ the 2nd of their two first rounders.

frankly id be surprised if we drafted a CB in the first round that wasnt one of those five players.